REDS double dump cartridge on block and leak issues

[Hydros]

Article first appeared on LIL
Date: 09-14-2015, 06:42 PM
I will update only on www.hydros.biz
http://www.layitlow.com/forums/13-hydraulics/708785-reds-double-solinoid-blocks-check-valve-seal-leakage-problems.html


REDS double dump cartridge on block and leak issues

The main problem is the dumps start to leak at the block and cartridge. The o-ring appears to give out. After studying the block I found of few things that can help solve this.

Below is my article and replies from another site:


 Reds double solinoid blocks and check valve seal leakage problems

    I just got my first Reds blocks today, and was checking to see what all the fuss was about the failure of check valves.

    IMO Reds made these as fast and cheap as possible. Looking at an Old Stone/Fenner check valve system, it's obvious what the problem was with Reds. IMO you do not use the same strength of metal-to-metal contact, especially if one part can rotate, that being the ball.

    Fenner/Stone used aluminum as the contact surface of the ball and a used a steel pin to push on the center only of the ball. Plus Fenner used a steel sleeve that almost completely surrounded the spring. As for Reds, this spring could have been a bit stronger, as to not get knocked out of place. Just bad machining.

    IMO Reds could have done three things to make the better check valve, first would have been to use a soft metal insert inside the block for the check ball to sit on. The other idea would be to use something other than a ball or made of a material that may or may not have bee around back then.

    EDIT Stone may not have used 100% ball to stem aluminum contact, I'll need to check, but I think Stone used a concave insert. I need to look at the old fittings.





As for blowing seals, I don't have an example of a bad valve, I believe all these issue can be fixed and improved on. It's just metal.
So don't throw out those blocks just yet, especially if you like that look.

[Hydros]

From:
Rick Dizzle


What up hydros! I had Reds Double Top pumps back in like 2002...I ran them in a 94 -4 door Honda Accord. What I remember, and forgive me as it was many years and set ups ago, was having issues with the ball sealing and the spring being weak...we used to stretch the lil spring to what we thought would create a tighter seal. (Obviously I was young and did not have a solid understanding or principles and that clearly would just make the issue worse.) The seal that once I started blowing and then kept blowing once it blew was the black o-ring right inside under the dump cartridge. I searched for some pics online of a double top taken apart and could not find any. It has been like 13 years since I worked on one and would have to see the pump with the dump cartridge off and I could point it out. I remember not being able to figure out why it kept blowing. Keep in mind this was a low voltage FBSS set up for laying my Accord on the ground, never got on this set up hard. I looked at the seating of the o-ring and it was clean, no chips, gouges and or imperfections that were visible to the eye that would cause a bypass and blow it. I tried installing the o-ring pre-lubed with a lil oil on it, dry with no oil and cleaned seat and so on. And I could lock up the car, drive across town and boom, it would start leaking or blow out. I remember vaguely (if I remember correct) seeing the o-ring push up past the nut head that it sat under. I hope this makes sense. If you post any picks, I will circle what I am referring too. Thanks for looking into this and hope my info provides some insight to the issues I had when I was younger/less knowledgeable.

[Hydros]

From: Rick Dizzle

Yep, that is it! That seal I circled was ALWAYS my culprit. I remember seeing that thing being blown up past that head and sticking out the side...now to be clear I don't mean like the entire o-ring, but you would see it partially coming through. I even remember seeing the seal with like a horizontal split in it....not against the width of the seal but with it.



Image by: 84euroclipbrougham

[Hydros]

OK, you see the large round drilled or milled area on the block where the ring sits, just before going into the block, Fenner used to use a 1/16" inch thick round spacer that sat just outside the ring. The ring had no where to blow. Plus looking at the ring seat on the valve, there is too much clearance, that ring should not even move, when the block is cut wrong. A thin teflon ring might have helped, above or below the ring, I am not sure. But it is a sloppy fit and may take a few dollars to fix them all, if my thoughts are correct.

But this problem with the ring is also in the block, it is not machined completely round. Using a thicker ring might solved this problem or just the teflon spacer (on the valve). I forget what the teflon rings that roll around onto the shaft is called.


I think they can all be fixed, I just need to understand everything about blowing the seal. Then trying different things here and there.



I once used a copper wire, maybe 16 gauge to take up the slack of a tube that would not fit tight into an engine EGR valve. The tube stuck at at approx 3/4"
I wrapped the copper around the tube until the hold down nut crushed the copper and the seal was made.  I am almost thinking of using the same idea here, as the copper would deform to the shape of the f*cked up machining. But like I said, less than $20.00 in parts could bring these blocks and valves back to life.

I kinda think, the coils on the dumps can also be changed out too, to common Delta coils. All IMO




Ahh, the check valve for a quick cheap fix might be a different story, I would have used some sort of washers to bring up the tension. BUT IMO, it was not the tension of the spring that caused the problem. It was the keeping of the ball centered at all times. Plus I thought I seen one of the balls damaged from hitting the block.

Real Stone Hydraulics uses the same ball check valve, but the springs are not all the same, I did find one spring and ball that fit perfect. The strong spring plus an added 1/8" in spring length. I was going to buy one off a guy on LIL, but got to remembering the Stone check valve and Reds looked the same.

My first thought was the needed sleeve

Next would be machine the ball with softer metal and have the part facing the block to be sorts made into a "V" to help guide the ball into the block.

Next thought was to machine the block with a higher ball stop (of softer metal). and the inside would be shaped like an open "V"

There are other type of check valves that might be small enough to fit inside the block, but I think the best way would have been to get a real check valve and cut it in half and press it into place.

Or those check valves that look like fittings, Somebody makes them, and may have a catalog. But I kinda think machine would be needed, but the valve would never give out.

REMEMBER all IMO

[Hydros]

From:
Rick Dizzle

Wow bro...I never looked at it that deep and (face palm), wish I would of thought of using that metal spacer to back that o-ring. I bet that would have really helped! Remembering how the o-rings would blow out the side, would have been avoided by the spacer. I tried seals of all different sizes and thicknesses and could never compensate for it blowing and or splitting. I found that the thicker o-rings would split...I am pretty sure I was inadvertently pinching the thicker o-rings when tightening everything down. As for the check ball/spring...I had a couple that had pitting in them over time. But you are correct, they just drop in, no guidance at all or direction keeping it "square" going in.

[Hydros]

But the spacer I'm thinking off may not work, but I just thought of something else, see that second pic and how much space the ring has above it.
What if you can get a spacer/washer etc. to fit on that flat inner part where the seal butts up to on the dump, (not block). Having say 1/16" or 3/32" space would push the ring down more inside the block.

IMO is would still seat uneven, but might work...



I was just outside and forgot somethings I was going to post (damn nap time). But one was of the chrome pealing where the dump seals into the block, finding this bug throw a wrench into things, I wanted the ring to sit low, but now you need to feather edge the damaged chrome first.

If you ever noticed, on the top side swivel fittings is the metal ring I was talking about, very hard to remove, unless you can flatten the first beginning thread near the o-ring side, you then may be able to turn it off. and put that on the sol valve.

Now there is a 3rd idea, should be cheaper and anyone can do it. Just get a 1/8" thick washer, This washer needs to fit real well around that hmm.. little raised area on the valve where the ring sits.

The opening of the washer must be approx .0875" if the OD (NOT ID) is too large, just grind the outside so that it just fits inside the recessed are on the top of the block. Or more more than 1.100" OD.

Now if the check valve was given any serious consideration by Reds, it could have been built into the pump head, or as the pump head and block meet, or inside the block with in an inch of the pump head.

REDS may have been able to modify the pressure release to act as a check valve.





see this article: http://www.layitlow.com/forums/13-hydraulics/629178-double-top-pumps-2.html#post22119617

[Hydros]

A different check valve and layout on a CCE block

Images from Edmund.

[Hydros]

Images from Gotchadef:

[Hydros]

I like the idea of using the accumulators, these might (IMO) take some load off the dumps, and if you don't ride topped off.

I never used these type of blocks, but a guy on here had two for 60.00 p/p Once I got to looking around, this was the same week some people were talking about problems. SO I get out the flash light and magnifying glass and took off parts. The machine work sucked, and I believe the only way to avoid problems is to avoid too much pressure, and pressure spikes. This included when dumping. Never ride fully topped off so much that the coils start to compress.

All IMO.

here is an email I sent:
Here is what I would do,
avoid using too many batteries, the slower it goes up IMO, the less chance of a pressure spike.
and try not to just drop it or shudder the switch, (meaning hitting the dump so fast, the car shudders down) So don't leave the slow down wide open, a nice med to dump is better IMO.
Never ride it with a heavy top off, or with the coils compressed.
Use accumulators

One more, use a pressure gauge on each pump and adjust the internal relief valve if needed, and use BMH hopping cylinders. And depending on many turns are left on your coils, maybe 6" cylinder and 8"cylinders for the rear, In my opinion the more coils turns and less tonnage the better.

It's the pressure spikes that will get ya. IMO

[Hydros]

From Zooter86

I've actually been putting together a setup of these for my car of old stock parts & this topic was exactly what I needed.

I got some NOS blocks that were disassembled & have been trying to determine a base-setting for the pressure relief valve screw: any input/ideas? or what pressure I should adjust it to once the setup is in?

one thing I did that I thought really cleaned up the look of the tops of the blocks was I replaced the hex bolt plug between the cartridges with a hex plug that sat flush with the top of the blocks. here's the ones I bought & used:

http://www.buyersproducts.com/Hydrau...lug-1075/3029/  Link is not working

& thanks for aiming to be different.

[Hydros]

Those internal reliefs kinda suck, you won't get that snap-up, as the fluid will pass through the relief too soon for split second, and will also make an odd sound. So the less batteries all around is better.

The pumps are rated between 1800-2200 psi factory setting, so unless they are new, you won't need to adjust them, if they are used, the relief is most likely been screwed down tight.

The way best way is connect them up, and back off the screw maybe three turns, then raise the car looking at the PSI. keep the switch on until you get full pressure, which might be 1000-1500 (if the spring has not been ruin.)

Then give it a 1/2 turn and try it again, until you see 2000 PSI, When feeling frisky, then up it another 1/4 turn at a time.

[Hydros]

if I am not repeating my self, I also noticed the chrome coming off of where the o-ring sits, you might want to feather edge this part. Looks real bad and may also cause a leak. (IMO)

[Hydros]

1) See that raised area just below the nut, that is were you want to install a washer, that washer must sit flush inside port. The good thing about the valve, is that the threads leave lots of room to fit (on top of the o-ring).

2) This how that raised area looks

Also note all the chrome flaking off the valve and o-ring seat.

[Hydros]

1) Now here is how the dump valves stems should look, that nut will turn so you can get a tight fit no matter where the port sits.

2) As you can see there is a lot of room for the o-ring. The metal washer on the fitting, is just about the same size to fit around the raised area of the fitting. Now looking at the dump valve you will also see a much thicker raised area for a thicker washer.

3) this is how you want it to look, so you have some room to play with the nut, washer, o-ring.  That washer is what's needed to stop the o-ring from blowing out.

[Hydros]

Another area of concern is the flaking chrome where the o-ring sits  At approx 10:00 to 2:00  this should be feather edged in case the flaking chrome starts to dig into the o-ring.
Try to avoid using thick o-rings.

So all-and-all, install a washer that fits on that round raised area above the o-ring, and sits in the recessed area. This could be all you need.

And you know those check valves from the old stone power packs, see if you can find a nice strong spring that fits inside the hex nut that hold the check valve.

And the last thought, is to see if you can use those check valves that are inside of fittings. On the reds blocks, you remove the existing spring and ball and thread (NPT) out the port, (if possible), to install the exterior check valve, making it into a interior check valve

[Hydros]

I have never used these.

more to come...

[Hydros]

Notice the machine work done on the lower part of the nut, it curves upward, when it should be straight:

And notice the treads in the block, how they come all the way up to where the o-ring sits on/in the block, not a real good idea.

[Hydros]

All of the following info may or may not be factual, just observations.

1)Here is where the check valve sits.

2) Don't know how the spring got so bad.

3) A view of some internal ports


Everything on this post and all others are not based on facts.

[Hydros]

Everything on this post and all others are not based on facts.


1) The center port is where the check ball and spring check valve sit.

2) Don't know how the check spring got so bad, could have stuck when tightening or tightening.

3) last pic is how some of the port holes are drilled.

[Hydros]

Everything on this post and all others are not based on facts.



And just some ideas for a replacement check valves/s

1) here is how it's sits inside the block,

2) then we see the external check used as a internal check valve, see how the external check valve faces when installed, look how small of an orifice there is, geeze.

3) This is how the check ball looks turned around,